The road to peace?

In the latest episode of Women Ending War, we offer a source for optimism via everyday peace activation and the work of Road to Recovery

I’ve discovered that I’m traveling in the opposite direction of most Israelis. While the common opinion is that most Israelis have taken two steps to the right since October 7, I’ve taken two steps to the left. (My friend RevRabbiDr. Haviva Ner David has an interesting take on this today.) One of the ways that my shift to the left has found expression is in my volunteering for the organization Road to Recovery, the group that supports Palestinians who need medical treatment in Israeli hospitals by working as a pro bono taxi service between checkpoints and hospitals. Why this service is needed is its own question. In the meantime, many Israelis are working to alleviate the many layers of pain involved in this story, and in the meantime create tiny little moments of peace activation.

On Oct 7, the organization lost volunteers: several volunteers from around Gaza were killed, and at least one is still being held hostage.

At the same time, since Oct 7, the organization has gained volunteers.

Like me.

In the latest episode of Women Ending War, my co-host Eva Dalak and I speak with Yael Treidel, a longtime peace activist and coordinator with Road to Recovery. We also speak with Dr. Fakhira Halloun, a Palestinian Christian citizen of Israel from Daliat al Karmel and expert in conflict resolution. We talk about root causes of the conflict, systemic violence, the challenges of peace work, and hope for the future.

Listen on Spotify:

Or watch on Youtube:

Or read the transcript below.

About the guests

Dr. Fakhira Halloun is a Senior Specialist on Conflict Resolution and Peacebuilding, leader of the First Reconciliation Network in the Arab Region, Peace Intervention Evaluator, Ethnic-National Conflict Researcher, and Palestinian citizen of Israel. She holds a PhD in Conflict Analysis and Resolution at George Mason University. She is an educator and advocate for human rights and democracy, as well as a social and political feminist activist, who strives to bring about change within the Arab community and to achieve equality for the Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel. Fakhira also served as a board member for Mossawa Center, The Advocacy Center for the Arab Citizens in Israel and worked for seven years in the Center for the Advancement of Shared Citizenship in Israel.

Yael Treidel, a coordinator for the organization Road to Recovery, is a writer, translator, and social and political activist. She serves on the board of directors of Women Wage Peace, and is co-founder and former candidate of Pashut Ahava, Simply Love, an Arabic-Israeli women-led political party that ran in the 2019 elections. Her debut novel When the Water Rises  was published in 2022 and she is currently working on her second novel.

More on Dr. Fakhira Halloun https://crdc.gmu.edu/tp-team/fakhira-halloun/

More on Yael Treidel https://3rd-space.org/a-rare-perspective-from-the-gaza-war-in-conversation-with-yael-treidel/

Road to Recovery https://www.theroadtorecovery.org.il/

Pashut Ahava Women’s Party https://www.facebook.com/pashutahava.il/

Museum of the Palestinian People https://mpp-dc.org/who-we-are1/

Podcast links

Podcast channel on Spotify (audio)

Podcast page on FB: https://www.facebook.com/WomenEndingWar

Podcast channel on Youtube (video): ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@elanahope
Elana's author site: https://www.elanasztokman.net/ ⁠

Eva's site: https://www.evadalak.me
Peace Activation: https://peaceactivation.org/ ⁠
Eva's substack: https://open.substack.com/pub/evadalak/
⁠Elana's substack: https://elanasztokman.substack.com⁠

Transcript

[Music] this is women ending War the podcast where you'll discover that there is another path that peace is possible and that the women here can lead the way I'm Dr Elana Sztokman. I'm here with Eva Dalak my co-host

Welcome

Elana: Okay how are you today Eva?

Eva: I'm great. So excited about the discussion today.

Elana: Yes I'm excited today.

Today we're talking about peace building. We're talking about grassroots activism. We're talking about conflict resolution and the hard work of bringing peace. We have two phenomenal interviewees today. I'm super excited we have first Dr Fakhira Halloun who has a doctorate in conflict resolution and has worked for the UN and is working for the UN in this area. So we're excited to hear about your work. And we have Yael Treidel who I've known for several years. Yael is a longtime activist very active in many organizations including a political party that we were involved with together a few years ago called Pashut Ahava. I

had to mention it. It was one of it's one of the few women all women's political parties that's ever run in Israel. Yael Treidel works as a coordinator with the organization Road to Recovery a super interesting organization. I also volunteer with them and I'm really eager to talk about the work and what they do. So shall we get started?

Eva: Yeah let's start.

Elana: Okay so first we'll start with Dr Fakhira Halloun. Welcome

Fakhira: Thank you so much thank you for the opportunity to share about our journey and in a time of a very difficult time.

Elana: Very difficult time yes so tell us a little bit about about what you do with conflict resolution and what you're doing with the UN.

Fakhira: Yeah so I want to have a correction just for you Elana. So I used to work at the UN from 2020 until 2021 at the UN office of the special coordinator for the Middle Middle East Peace which I worked as the first consultant for the Civil Society and peace building which my role was to bring to to search or to map the peace building efforts between Palestinians and Israelis of the Civil Society efforts that are aiming to end the occupation and to solve the Palestinian Israeli conflict and a peace solution. And my role was to see with these efforts and to empower the efforts that we think that really goes in alignment with the UN Mission as well and also to find opportunities n both sides and to coordinate and to consult between them and maybe to link sometimes Palestinian and Israeli Peace

activists and to empower them in time of conflict.

And because it's not an easy time and also to help in redefine what is peace building in certain time. Because the definition of peace building is crucial in a way that sometimes working in peace building can duplicate the same reality in the name of peace building and do not really make a change in structural change. But you have really to to to know what is the definition of peace building in certain time. And this is a crucial insight that I have that I got from this work because each effort of peace building can consider as a successful or as an approach that make a difference. Anyway we can talk about this a lot because what's the definition of peace building in the context of the Palestinian Israeli conflict and who defines peace building. Eva: I think especially right now in this challenging time I think peace building, the field of Peace building is being shaken to the core of it. I like to refer to it as peace activation rather than peace activism. Peace building comes from the era of peacemaking.

I used to work for the UN peacekeeping mission in Ivory Coast and so I know very well this distinction. And for me it's really like right now we have a great opportunity actually to redefine this peace building specifically on the Palestinian- Israeli conflict because it has shaken the foundation of Peace building. But it has also shaken the foundation of the international system that actually brought the United Nation in 1945.

Elana: So how would you be redefining, what are your definitions? Fakhir: What is my definition for peace building? It's for me I guess Palestinian and Israeli if they are working together now they should really work for ending the occupation and ending the violent structure of the Israeli occupation. And at the same time situating this approach in thinking about solution and work for solution. But not to to deny the structural violence that's going on and colonizations that are going on for a long time. And the peace building needs to touch upon the structural violence and destabilize it and break it and mobilize people to change the structure in a way that give legitimacy for people to be in this homeland and also for equality and freedom and security for both sides. So it should challenge both people. But at the same time it should not ignore the imbalance in the power relationship and the structural violence and usually the peace building. And you should also ask who's defining, and who are the the main donors for peace building in the Israeli Palestinian field. It's a crucial question that we need to ask. And by asking this question you will understand why the peace building in Israel Palestine do not make a political change because

the main donors define it not in a way that it will make a political change.

Eva: I think there's something I would like to add here I think what you're referring to is conflict transformation as defined by Johan Galtung which really refers to structural violence and working with root causes of conflict which specifically in the Palestinian

Israeli conflict hasn't been tackled by any

of the organization working in the peace field. And that's why peace became a really bad word for Palestinians and also for Israelis because it was really, rather than peace building, we need peace management didn't build peace we just managed the conflict. We're doing conflict management versus conflict transformation and missing the opportunity for real transformational change for both people.

Fakhira: Totally. And we need to reclaim to reclaim the right definition of peace. Because peace means that both sides will get their rights in a way that is equal and has freedom and security. Not to use the peace building as an approach that will serve one side as it's happening now that it's serving the Israeli side.

Elana: Can you explain that a little bit? Fakhira: Because the peace building for now was like, in the last few years also was built according to

the definition that it's economical peace. We want to have to have Palestinian and Israeli work about economic projects or about friendship or to touch about relationship but without to touch really to mobilize them to change the reality or to protest the occupation or to think how they will change the the imbalanced power relationship. Peace building needs to be in a way that you mobilize Israelis and Palestinian to struggle against the occupation in a way that it might be not necessarily a violent way but to struggle and in the way that also give a hope for both sides that they can be living together in the same homeland with cooperation not necessary separation. The approach that this slogan of two- state solution that we have been also working the peace building field was built also on the Oslo agreement and in the two-state solution, and it has been going in a way that is

not really tackling the the root causes of the conflict. And that why also the Palestinians lost lost trust in the peace building and they left it. So who remains in the peace building in the last 10-20 years is Israelis and international and mainly Americans because the main donors are Americans. The the big donation is from America. And so who defines this Beast building is the approach the international and the Israelis. And the Palestinians, most of them quit it. And  when you are not part of the peace building, so you are not also part in shaping it. So there is also a price that they also left the peace building field. So it was shaped in a way that it serves the interest of the Israelis and the international world, without reflecting truly the demands of the Palestinians and their right for self-determination and their rights for collective rights. So it somehow it worked but it didn't change the reality of the Palestinians.

Eva: Absolutely. And I think here we we also need to reflect on the fact that the Palestinian left the field and only it became the business of peace building and the business of conflict resolution. But when you leave the space, well the space is going to be occupied by those who have interest.

Fakhkira: Totally.

Eva: And so there's a responsibility here also for the Palestinians to reflect on, especially after the Oslo Accord who was aiming towards a solution but that the vision got lost in the in the mix I think.

Elana: Can we go back for a second to you were talking about structural violence and root causes I think that there are a lot of people who don't know what that who don't know what that is referring to. Can you flesh that out a little bit what you mean by structural violence and what you consider to be root causes?

Fakhira: Structural violence, like if we look now to the situation between Palestinian and Israelis, Israel controls the daily life of the Palestinians in the West Bank in East Jerusalem and also in Gaza. Let's say the siege in Gaza since 2006 which means that they control their daily life, which means the freedom of movement. They control, it they control their their basic rights, you know, like Palestinians to move from one place to other they have to go in checkpoints, they have to undergo dehumanization. They also have,

their lands have been taken in the last decades by settlements. lt became, all their lands became shrinking, so the the the settlers are surrounding, founding their lands and taking all the

natural resources. And it's not just taking the natural resources. There's extreme increase in the violence of the settlers toward the Palestinians that we can we can see it each day. But now, and Israel backing that. Like there's not just control, it's justified. Because there is also this dynamic of master and slave, you know, like it's the master and slave that we have to see that it has been in the last 70 years of occupation. And there's also a blurring the borders now. You cannot know where's the West Bank and where is Israel and we cannot ignore that most Israelis in Israeli society are going to the right wing to extreme right wing which think that the whole area should be Israel, and Palestinian need to

to agree for that and if they don't agree they have to to leave or they have they have to be threatened or punished for not accepting the mastery of Israel. And also the destroying of the houses also the arrests. Like, you have to see

all of their daily life is controlled by Israel.

Israel can now go inside Ramala and arrest people and humiliate them and do whatever and they cannot do anything because it's under occupation.

EvaL And not just under occupation, I would add under occupation with the illusion of a Palestinian Authority that is controlling their life which it is not. It's the Palestinian Authority with what the Oslo Accord established as a Palestinian Authority that became the servant of the Israeli military occupation. And this is something that people are not really aware of.

Fakhira: Definitely. And the weakening the Palestinian Authority, Israel also weakened the Palestinian Authority in the last two decades, which also, they're losing their trust within the Palestinian Society. But also we have to see like, really, if you go to to the West Bank you cannot think that this this is West Bank. You cannot see, like, it's a continuation of Israel. And the control of the settlers for each control the settlers to Palestinian life and feeling that there's no law that nobody can stop them okay.

Eva: No mans land.

Fakhira: You can see a lot of videos of settlers killing Palestinians, going to their land just to for what we say harvest the the oil,

the olive oil and harvest the olive oil and you see settlers just kill, like beating them and the soldiers watching this scene can tell you a lot about what's mean occupation, that who's the master here okay. And and we cannot ignore the mindset of the majority of the Israelis that looking to the Palestinians that they are they are in in low status and they are here who control everything and they have the legitimacy to do anything toward the Palestinians and nobody will  stop them. I mean the mindset itself also part of what mean occupation for a long time and the culture of occupier and the culture of people who are under occupation. And we cannot ignore the arrests. You know how many children are in the Israeli jail without any trial, without any trial, and this is just because child like 13 or even seven might be just a provoking a soldier

Elana: Yeah because the Army can do that.

The Army can detain people for six months without charge and then they can extend it for another six months without charge and there --

Fakhira: It's like to control each aspect in your life this is what occupation

means. And this is how children in the West Bank and in East Jerusalem see Israelis in this image of the occupier, not in the human side.

Elana: Right let's go to Yael now because Yael is very involved with Road to Recovery and I think Road to Recovery is one of the organizations that is trying to you know at least create not not a solution, it is not going to root causes it's not a root cause solution, it's a trying to make daily life a little bit better for certain people if possible. Tell us about Road to Recovery

Yael: Road to Recovery it's an organization that created a network of Israeli volunteers who who help Palestinian patients most of them with severe diseases cancer and others that are life-threatening, to come to treatments in Israel and Israeli hospitals. The thing for the Palestinians is that because of the state of Palestine, many of the hospitals, I mean there there are no hospitals with very high level of medical

care so they need these, they need to get these treatments in hospitals in Israel. But these treatments are paid by the Palestinian Authority but the Palestinian Authority does not cover the travel and sometimes people need three times, to go three times a week or sometimes every we have patients to go every day. And the whole thing started because the founder Yuval Rot, he's a member of the Bereaved Family Forum because his brother was uh murdered by by Palestinians and and he was approached by a Palestinian members in this forum and they asked for his help to get to the hospital because they don't have enough money to do this. So he started doing it just voluntarily but then suddenly he got more and more requests and very soon it it came became very clear that this is just a real a serious need because people in Palestine --

before this, before Road to Recovery was there, people in Palestine sometimes just died because they didn't have enough money for travel Elana: And also they can't always get permits right? Is that true?

Yael: Also there's an issue with permits so the the permits are actually, most people who need, I mean they need two things. They need the coverage from the Palestinian Authority and they need the permit from the Israeli military Governor. These are usually given you have to remember that hospitals make a lot of money from these patients because it's like private. They're sort of getting private coverage from the Palestian Authority. It's like when people come from abroad to it's Eva: like medical tourism

Yaeal: Medical tourism so they get a lot a lot of money. So there is an interest to actually have these patients coming in. But the hospitals for example, most don't don't cover, and also don't arrange for travel. So literally, so these people who are mostly really sick are just left to, you know, left with no solution. So this is where we come in. We have hundreds of people who just, you know, they're people who are having their own life, their own jobs and voluntarily come in the morning, people are coming to pick up patients from the the checkpoint to the hospital and then when these patients finish they let us know and we send people to take them back.

Elana: I've done that. I've done that a whole bunch of times, taking people from the hospital back to their checkpoints. And it's always strange to me. I mean, there's two experiences. One experience is the understanding that hospitals are a form of shared society right? Hospitals are

one of the few places where you actually have

you know mixed -- and as human beings. Like everybody's you know, two people are going through cancer at the same time, they're not talking necessarily about you know their politics and identity necessarily. I mean that's not

even 100% true, but a lot of times Israel hospitals are sort of held up as this place of shared society because everybody there becomes just human beings, unfortunately that's not the way the rest of Israel is. But it is interesting that the Road to Recovery experience is one of sort of trying to humanize each other and understand that we're all in this together and that life is fragile and that we're all vulnerable and it sort of creates you know something else. But at the same time every time I do this drive, it always makes me like angry because I'm like, why should we have to do this? Why? And it feels like I'm holding space

with somebody else's humiliation. You know a guy who's taking his three-year-old child for you know some heart surgery and it's like he wants to do his own driving. He wants to take care of his child, he doesn't want to have to sit around waiting for some volunteer. And so it's always like a reminder of you know,what are we doing here? Like what is this? And so Road to Recovery is like amazing because I do feel like, they talk about, you know, you talk about the little moments of peace making, right? Every time we drive together in the car there are these real connections and real --

I mea,n it would be better if I spoke better Arabic which, it's a big incentive for me actually to work on my Arabic, but like it is true. There are these moments of humanization. But it's also really highlights to me each time like what is this?

Yael: Look, as a coordinator I deal with this all the time. People sometimes don't get their permit because because it's not only the patient they come with an an escort, somebody who comes with them so sometimes the escort didn't get an a permit and sometimes they don't know until the last minute. And this is why this is a very complex kind of structure. But the thing is, sometimes for example people who come from villages near Jenin or from Jenin, and need to to get to the checkpoint, sometimes especially during war, which is, you know, everything gets much worse, they have extra blocks on the road, sometimes they have so much shooting around they just can't leave the house sometime. So it's, and we never know. And the thing is, look, the thing is like you said, I think this organization is not ambitious. We're not trying to solve the Middle East problem. I think the main thing is, we're just trying to do good. We're just trying to help people who need help. This is why on the 8th of October we were there, and picked up the very few -- in the first day there were only very few that got the permit or that had the courage.

Also just imagine, to come, to cross the, you know, you have to travel to the checkpoint where at like sometimes 4:00 in the morning because you know you're being picked up at 5 or 6:00 with a baby and any soldiers can, any soldier can stop you on the way and search for your, you have to have all your identifications and everything and if you forgot something they can just literally just send you back home or in -- especially in the beginning of the war also a lot of the soldiers were very edgy. Literally, you know, they were afraid that somebody, even not intentionally, even you know not to talk about intentionally, well, shoot and then you go all the So there is something also I have to say. Sometimes when I drive I do it usually in the morning. Sometimes they're so tired they literally sit in my car and in like five minutes it's like dead quiet everybody is asleep. I don't put the radio I don't I just I drive, trying not to go you know over bumps and everything just to me, it is just kind of like, it's, I don't know heartwarming that they trust enough to just get in the car and fall asleep.

Elana: That's true

Yael: But also you think of of these people that have to travel sometimes hours because many you know many times we cannot get them volunteer. Especially on the way back we cannot get them the volunteers They may sometimes they finish at 11:00 and we only find a volunteer at four. It happens. We try to do it as fast as possible but it happens and then they go home and then they have to do it again And sometimes I think, how can you get better you know if you come to a hospital you do all this treatment? But the thing is but at the same time it's also saving lives and also it creates connection. And I look I when you called me, I told you I'm not a very positive and optimistic activist these days.

Elana: Why? You want to talk to that for a minute?

Yael: Yeah but I'll just say, but in the drives, if any day, if someday, this horrible violence and craziness will finish, there is, you know, maybe there will be somebody who will remember, you know, that an Israeli took them, and maybe the Israelis will, there something in this something

Eva: You're talking about the humanization of the other and I think what you're speaking to is the feminine quality of caregiving and this this act of just being very practical and logistics. So we're not discussing who's wrong who's right, We're just like, you have a need, I'm going to make my best to answer this need, and I think that speaks a lot to the humanity of each other which is really crucial in times of war where people are being dehumanized and where sides are being polarized. And I really I love what you're sharing right now and I think that the Road to Recovery is really the symbol of this -- this volunteer waiting to drive from both sides. you know drive

Yael: I'll give you a few examples. For example just about that, I remember in the beginning of the war there was a lot of discussion also between the volunteers and I remember a volunteer saying that she felt that when they got she felt that they they hated her or something. She felt, and another volunteer said, "I don't give them a loyalty test. I don't give them, I don't care if they hate me or not. I am doing it because they need it they need it. I am privileged enough to be able to drive here freely and take them and I'm doing it." and I thought this was just because there was also this, "Are they Hamas? Are they this, are they this?' and it's not it's not. It's a three-year-old kid. He's not a terrorist. He's a kid. And so that was part of it. Also can I tell it like, just from the two last two weeks like a couple of very moving I thought moving stories. Like for example last week there was one patient that we drove quite a lot and actually that day the hospital told her this is the last time. She they gave they said there's nothing more we can do. So there was literally just like few days left and we and I knew that. I was on the coordination team and I knew that. And it was a a day that was very hard to find volunteers and I was thinking if for for anybody for this one who had only like a few days left we need to find for her a volunteer quickly and she came from -- and nobody likes to go to Ichilov because it's the center of Tel Aviv horrible traffic and and I managed to find a woman who really didn't want.

It was the her one free day a week and I found her and she really didn't want to go but she decided to go and um and she took the the patient and a couple of days later the patient died. And I and I thought there was something very powerful. Also this volunteer she she wrote about it, how powerful it is, it's just a human, the human thing of it, of meeting a very, of having the privilege to do a service to just a beautiful human being in her last couple of days. And it really doesn't matter, you know, what's her religion or what's her nationality. And the other thing was, you know, we had just a couple of days before I was looking for volunteers, there was a volunteer that really wanted to help but he couldn't and then at 10:00 at night we got an emergency request for a child in Hebron that needed to go to Sheba. And so I put a message out, and in 10 minutes he called and he said, "I couldn't come earlier but I can come now," and at 10:00 at night he left his home and he went and took -- you know it's a long long drive from, for people who don't know the country, it's from the area of Hebron to go to Tel Aviv -- so to be honest this kind of interaction and also acts of kindness in the middle of so much violence and so much poison because I feel there's something just poisonous in everything now and just like and and violence is is trickling down into you know. And not just now, I mean for years and years, but it obviously is really highlighted because the time of war. And that's what keeps me going because in all these acts of kindness all these beautiful

Eva: Acts of service

Yael: Yeah exactly this is what, thank you because somebody asked me once what you know about this drive but what if they don't talk, what if, what if, I said I don't really care because I just feel I'm I'm just the driver here I'm just doing service and I think it just just reminds me -- and I mean you can talk about your own experience -- but I think you know what I hear from drivers -- it just reminds me of our own humanity. It doesn't solve the conflict but I think in a certain way there are forces that are so big and there's so much feeling of helplessness in face of all this. like Giant because look it's I mean you you probably know even much bigger, you know, it's way beyond just Israelis and Palestinians. it's like there are so many forces involved in it. And so in order for me to just stay sane or

Eva: Semi sane

Elana: Close to sane, as close to sane as possible

Yael: Is to focus on goodness on kindness on everything that is 180 degrees the opposite way.

Elana: Fakhira what do you think about that?

Fahkira: Yeah I was, I found myself moved by a lot of things that you were talking about. But I want, there's two narratives that can be here.

And also to touch upon the human interaction and in time of that, the evilness has expanded between the two people so much and what kind of this actions I guess. One side can say, okay this is the structural the structural violence that you were talking about with me. This is an example that Palestinians cannot go to hospitals and they need the permit, they need to go through checkpoint, they need the help of the Israelis. This is exactly one example for the for the occupation what to be under occupation. And is this kind of of effort normalizing the occupation as you say. One side can say, this is a kind of peace building, but I will say that it's normalizing the occupation. You are helping the Palestinian and you duplicate the same reality in order to make the Israeli face look good and to feel good with the occupation, as Israeli. I just want to also support the other narrative as well, but this is one narrative that can be like in the occupation instead of helping them and just normalize the structural violence. But the other things that I cannot ignore is really the human interaction between the both side that we don't see it in the last 20 years, there's a split. There is a psychological, political wall between the two societies that each one see the other as their enemy so they deserve to be killed, so there is no human interaction and when you have this human interaction you transcend the values, transcend the national identity. Because the national identity today is violent, is violent toward the other, it's delegitimizing the other and we need to connect true human values together because we deserve that. Otherwise we are going to suicide. If I don't, if I will not see the Jewish Israeli as a human person who deserve to live and the Palestinian who deserve to live in equality and freedom like me, so I will think it's it's legitimized to kill them. And when you don't see person, it's not in your consciousness, so the killing will be very easily and the support the killing it will be easy because he's the enemy, and he's he's the one deserve to be killed. And I guess this kind of encounter means a lot if we think about the in length of peace building and creating peace because it expand the human nature of both sides also the Palestinian that they don't see, they see the Israeli as occupier but this time they see him as helping as a human, like them, as partner with them in this journey. And also the Israeli to see Palestinian and to and to see Palestinian and to trust them to be with them in the car and to see them as a human without checking them, okay, it's like the human nature of interaction is so beautiful that we don't live it even the the spontaneous encounter between humans. We don't have it anymore in this land because we are all the time looking to the other in lens of enemy and suspicious and anger and hate and security. And we lost this human linkages that we can create between people and we should create between people. I am the the opposite -- I think encounter between Palestinians and Israeli is needed. It's so much needed in this time and we need also to change the structure and to struggle against the occupation. But at the same time we need to have encounter between the two people people because when you meet the other side he's already in your consciousness he become part of your consciousness so you don't -- and also your narrative about him and about yourself will be changed in a way that you cannot see him as a monster. He's, he deserves to be, he's part of your future and this is the tricky things now in our reality. While the the dehumanization and the hate and the revenge is expanded so much between the two people Elana: Have you seen things getting worse since October 7th? Do you think that --

Yael and Fakhira: Yeah oh my God

Elana: I'd love for you to share

Fakhira: I mean we can start about what happens in the 7th of October and the massacre and the horrifying scenes that we saw in the 7th of October in the name of resistance and or what in the name and and the the the response of Israel toward Gaza the scenes that you see each day from Gaza and the genocide happening toward the Palestinians my people. And and we cannot ignore the support the collective support of what's happening from the Israeli side toward the scenes that -- here's split even I guess, most of the Israelis do not care what's happening there because they have this split and they have -- It wasn't an easy seventh of October okay and it's horrifying but also the narrative about what's happened, also it's the trauma so triggered the the trauma but also how how how it was used by Israel as a narrative as a collective narrative and also in the name, and also about the other side that they are monsters, they are all Hamas, and they are all supporting Hamas so that you justify what's going on, and the trauma that there is in the Israeli society which I understand it but it's in a way that that closed their minds and hearts. They do not see scenes and even if they see the scenes they don't see the Palestinians as a human. All these narratives about the Palestinians that they are not a human. but I cannot say that in the Palestinian side that there's also the collective now because after they what see what's happening in Gaza there is also majority that are supporting the poor and the  -- and so the both sides think that the power is what's now will work with the other side. The killing and the fighting will work. They don't think even about a different future between the both side. And here we have to think about different imagination how we can imagine both sides living together in time of conflict. And this is the hard thing for the Palestinians and Israelis who work in peace building how you really in time of escalation and horrifying things and while the boundaries of evil and hate and revenge like expanded so much how you plant the seeds for imagination for a different future and moral imagination moral imagination which mean that you imagine the enemy in your whip and in a way that that you go in a journey that it contradict what you think and trust the risk because this journey is better than the darkness. And I guess who spoke about John Paul Lederach, it is called "The Moral Imagination" It's an amazing book that I think Palestinians and Israelis need to discuss in this time.

Eva: I would push it to radical imagination really being radical about the possible hope the possible solution that maybe is not seen right now. But if we expand the box and manage the infinite possibilities that we have here then we can reach that moral imagination, radical imagination and radical  solution

Fakhira: Definitely and and it's not easy to do it now while the genocide is happening Eva: I think it's not easy but it's a it's it's an opportunity

Faknira: Definitely

Eva: I think it's really an opportunity actually that we're having because what the 7th of October did is bringing the conflict to the living room of the of the Israelis and that's what we needed. And so it shift in the narrative also about what are we talking about right now, the structural violence and everything that you mentioned in the early talk that we had. To realize that continuing to control and fight and military power will not bring security for Israelis will not bring it just you have to to look for a solution that give also the Palestinian the freedom the self-determination and the equality like you in a way that will will really bring security for both sides.

Elana: We keep coming back to this idea that there are two processes that have to happen at the same time and one can't happen one can't work without the other. One process is the structural political change and the is the groundwork human everyday you know how we see each other the psychological or sociological shifts, the humanization, what you talked about the humanization of each other. These two things are intertwined you can't do one without the other They're big big tasks big tasks. So any final words that you'd like to share before we we sign off about um thinking about the peace work again any insights about

Yael: I want to respond just to something that, about the first narrative that you described. Because I think obviously it's true I mean I can tell for myself I feel a lot of guilt and it helps me a little. And I remember the first time that I went to drive some patients, I met another volunteer who was waiting also for the patients to cross and he asked me, "Do you like driving?" I said, "No, not really". And he said, "So you are here to clear your conscience a little bit?" And I said, "Well it doesn't really help my conscience but it, you know, it helped me feel that I'm doing something good yeah." So in that sense it's true. On the other hand not doing anything is not a solution also.

Elana: That's worse yeah it's even worse it's just to say okay I can't do anything I think but if I may you're referring to because you mentioned the word kindness there's a sentence that say in a word where you can be anything be kind yeah and I love this sentence and I think that's what your your stories refer to the kindness the importance of small acts of kindness that are also acts of service. it's also I think it's good for the other but it's good for our own soul to just to not be corrupted. Because look I just just really quickly but even you know on the 7th of October a few volunteers of Road to Recovery were murdered. Some were taken hostage. Some, at least one is still hostage.

We lost also a lot of uh volunteers but also some new volunteers joined which is interesting some new volunteers joined after the the war started Elana: Me for example

Yael: For example right. and so what I'm what I'm saying is there has to be, I think what I'm just trying to to be clear on, because I think we are in a situation always trying to juggle, you know, how to do and and coming from privilege, we are privileged, I mean, not to talk -- Look we're following the coordinator from Gaza. We keep following him and keep supporting as much as we can and he sends us sometimes photos of, you know, the food they're making that they manage to and and whatever. So we find I think peace activists here that are not that are really --

peace activists who have a network of friends all over found themselves in this situation where you literally, cause you can't pick sides because they, you have friends everywhere. And also

Fakhira: She's she's talking about something very important and I want to return back to the definition of Peace building because there is the two levels the human level and the structural level. like there is all the time this struggle also between Palestinian Israeli activist what do we want just to change the structure first the occupation and then we will do peace with Israelis or we also want to work on the human level. And this is also the struggle among us the Palestinians and Israeli peace activists. All the Palestinian peace activists because the occupation continue. How we can continue work in peace while the structural

violence continues? And how we navigate all the time between two these two levels also have this human interaction between both side and also change the structure? I think it should be intertwined because this is all the time also the the argument about the peace building but we need to intertwine both levels. I totally agree with you that we cannot just work about the structural violence and destabilize it and break it without working on the human interaction, the

relationship, changing the lens that we see each other. So this is I guess the dance or the navigation in this in this place between the human level and the structural level. And once we find the balance in a way that do not the human level do not take all the weight and and they allow us to deny the structural violence or the structural violence take all the the argument without seeing the human interaction we cannot make it the change. We have to intertwine them both of them

Eva: And what I want to add to this is that you're what you're describing is the integration between the masculine and the feminine, the structural being the masculine power and the feminine being the human connection and it is really the peace activation of embodying and integrating the masculine and feminine approach just like within us, the structure is nothing without the content and the vision, and the content is nothing without the structure. So thank you for this positive note thank you

Elana: Thank you. This was, you know, my heart feels like really heavy so so much suffering you know that was raised here and thank you for your work and for not giving up even when it feels like you want to. thank you thank you for being here

Fakhira: Thank you for kindness thank you commitment. I guess yeah this we we look for common values between us in times of Darkness

Elana: Yes thank you for it's not an easy thank you so much [Music]

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